Araakii
Well-known
Wow you get your film cheap. I don't know where I can get $2 film these days.
But even then, your math is based on the assumption that you will own the M9M till the day it dies completely with no way of fixing it. Even if you bought the M8 for $4,500, it's still worth a cool $2,000 like 6 years later. I am sure many of us would've spent $2,500 on film in 6 years.
Araakii
Well-known
Suicide or not, we will find out. But apparently we have so many non-business people here who can somehow make a better judgment than the CEO of a successful company.
DRabbit
Registered
Okay, it's $2.69 actually (right now). I've paid as low as $2.19. Even so, that would still get me 2,974 rolls -- or 107,064 photos. Even at $3.00 per roll I'd get almost 100,000 photos. Are the digital M cameras shutters even rated for above 100,000 actuations? (I honestly don't know).
$2500 = 33,444 photos. To me, that's still quite a lot of photos.
If you had to fix an old M out of warranty, that could cost a pretty penny. If my M8 shutter or sensor dies tomorrow, it's likely going to cost me $1000 or more to fix (and I wouldn't be able to get the same thing likely... I have an original M with the 1/8000 max shutter speed). In digital you'd have to maintain a decent computer, storage and software. There are always additional costs in either camp to consider (like cost of chemicals or developing) -- but I wash all that out just for sake of easy numbers. Leica film cameras have maintained their value better than the digitals... and my Zeiss, I could sell it for almost exactly what I paid for it 2 years ago... so you really have to call all of that a wash too.
I'm certainly not saying this is an argument against the M9M. I just don't think anyone can make the argument that this camera will be the tipping point that pushes film-die-hards to finally switch to digital... and it's partially because of the price. At $4K it would still be hard to swallow for a lot of people, but I bet a whole lot more people would entertain the idea.
And I'm a Leica-fan-girl, so I'd likely buy it if money allowed. LOL. I like to live in denial and believe I'll afford one again someday, but that's highly unlikely.
Araakii
Well-known
Not everyone has the time, skill or space to develop their own film. Most labs charge $5-$8 per roll to develop. And a lot of us shoot $4 or $5 film. So $2,500 really amounts to maybe 300 rolls at best over a 6 years period or 1,500 frames per year.
But of course, film shooters will still shoot film. Nothing is gonna change that unless film is completely not available anymore.
But of course, film shooters will still shoot film. Nothing is gonna change that unless film is completely not available anymore.
DRabbit
Registered
It takes like 1/2 an hour. I do it in a bathroom that's 1/2 bath size. It honestly doesn't take much skill (though the guys really good at it probably do it better than me - LOL). Everyone has access to $2.69 film. And 300 rolls still amounts to 10,000 photos. but it's not $2500 we're talking about... it's $8000 (cost of M9M)... so triple your 300 rolls to 900.
Agreed. I shoot both
There's just no price benefit to shooting an M9M unless you shoot B&W weddings.
pieter
Established
What I find strange is that so many people want to see a direct comparison with the color M9 converted b&w shots. Wouldn't a comparison with the M10 be more interesting? Surely the M10 will do both color AND b&w better, making the point of the M Monochrome mute? Won't you feel very silly with your monochrome at photokina in september?
bob338
Well-known
I will happily give anyone willing to buy me a M9 Mono the following:
1 Jobo CPP2 with lift and about 10 large tanks with about 30 reels
Several gallons of chemicals
At least 1500 feet of Eastman XX
At least 100 rolls of Tri-X, 320 and 400 in 120
At least 200 rolls of Ilford HP5 in 120
Another 100 rolls of various Ilford, Fomapan, and Kodak film in 120
3 bulk loaders and around 100 empty cassettes
I'll also throw in some darkroom books.
I'll even throw in a Fujica G690BL.
I'll even deliver everything anywhere in Northern California.
Any takers? Come on, all you film fanatics!
1 Jobo CPP2 with lift and about 10 large tanks with about 30 reels
Several gallons of chemicals
At least 1500 feet of Eastman XX
At least 100 rolls of Tri-X, 320 and 400 in 120
At least 200 rolls of Ilford HP5 in 120
Another 100 rolls of various Ilford, Fomapan, and Kodak film in 120
3 bulk loaders and around 100 empty cassettes
I'll also throw in some darkroom books.
I'll even throw in a Fujica G690BL.
I'll even deliver everything anywhere in Northern California.
Any takers? Come on, all you film fanatics!
DRabbit
Registered
LOL Bob... If I had $8K to spend, it wouldn't be on buying you a M9M
Araakii
Well-known
I already pointed out the flaw in your math, but I guess that's why a lot of people complain about the prices here on this forum, instead of making the purchases. They just don't understand math.
Price shouldn't be a factor anyway. Film vs digital should be an aesthetics issue. Cost should never come into play.
mfogiel
Veteran
I have been advocating a digital M monochrome camera myself for years. The point would be, to do away with the nuisance of development and scanning, perhaps gaining some other advantage, like better resolution and higher ISO on the way. Leica can only be acclaimed for that. The price, as long as we remain in the realm of top pro cameras, is not a concern. The real concern is, wheather this camera can take pictures, that have the tonal qualities which can rival film. I have my doubts here, because nothing has been done to enhance the bit depth of the files, but let's wait and see some serious output from it.
To these, who present the usual equations about how many rolls of film you can buy with 8000US, I respond, that they are not calculating the time it takes to develop and scan at a professional level. If one would assign it to a serious pro lab, I reckon, you would have to spend at least 50EUR (65 USD) per roll of 36 film, to get the proper result, but still you would have to add the time you would waste to deal with the lab.
On top of that, I know no film that can take decent quality photos atr ISO 10000.
To these, who present the usual equations about how many rolls of film you can buy with 8000US, I respond, that they are not calculating the time it takes to develop and scan at a professional level. If one would assign it to a serious pro lab, I reckon, you would have to spend at least 50EUR (65 USD) per roll of 36 film, to get the proper result, but still you would have to add the time you would waste to deal with the lab.
On top of that, I know no film that can take decent quality photos atr ISO 10000.
dotur
od karnevala
www.ivanlozica.com
I've sold my M8 (first owner) two years ago. Too much spent money and a lot of frustration for an unreliable piece of dubious jewelry. For me, after that experience, a digital Leica rangefinder is a fake Leica. The only digital "Leica" products I am still in love with are Panasonic LC1 and LX3. Apart from those I still have a genuine Digilux 3 - hard to love and ugly, but working.
And this camera has the best focal plane shutter ever, a shutter I would like to find in a digital Leica:
0809dot2012 by dotur, on Flickr
I've sold my M8 (first owner) two years ago. Too much spent money and a lot of frustration for an unreliable piece of dubious jewelry. For me, after that experience, a digital Leica rangefinder is a fake Leica. The only digital "Leica" products I am still in love with are Panasonic LC1 and LX3. Apart from those I still have a genuine Digilux 3 - hard to love and ugly, but working.
And this camera has the best focal plane shutter ever, a shutter I would like to find in a digital Leica:
0809dot2012 by dotur, on Flickr
J. Borger
Well-known
Let's just waite and watch what serious B&W shooters have to say about the camera after proper testing before judging. The sample pictures i have seen so far still look like processed to death digital files to me. And there is something strange about the whole concept: B&W and clean iso 10000??? B&W and overly sharp high contrast APO lenses??? It all sounds like a different ball game. Not a competitor for traditional B&W film Photography.
DRabbit
Registered
Yeah, and I already pointed out the flaws in yours. So we're even now. LOL!
I'm not advocating one way or the other honestly. Never was. I was stating that for me it makes sense to just stick with film for "that B&W look" because I cannot afford and/or justify an M9M purchase. I'd imagine there are other film shooters who feel the same... matter of fact, I know there are... and much more serious film shooters than me (who shoot with Leica cameras too). And price is the reason they feel that way.
braver
Well-known
I can calculate all I want (any way you slice it the M9-M would need to last quite a while to make more economical sense than Tri-X to me), the image quality can be all sorts of wonderful at all ISOs, but it doesn't quite have the look for me. That said it's a wonderful idea and I love that they actually did it.
noimmunity
scratch my niche
I'm glad.
1) It looks like a cool idea; some people will have fun. Would love to see it in the hands of someone like Marek.
2) Leaves the M8 completely relevant. The M10 won't change that, neither does the X2. And it's becoming highly doubtful the APS-C mirrorless thingy will, either.
3) Hence, it leaves plenty of room, in terms of pricing, for further market segmentation in the M realm. Sooner or later, somebody's gotta come out with the updated mid-spec'd $3000 dRF.
Oh yeah, I'm with Dang-Wabbit: B&W film is cool!
1) It looks like a cool idea; some people will have fun. Would love to see it in the hands of someone like Marek.
2) Leaves the M8 completely relevant. The M10 won't change that, neither does the X2. And it's becoming highly doubtful the APS-C mirrorless thingy will, either.
3) Hence, it leaves plenty of room, in terms of pricing, for further market segmentation in the M realm. Sooner or later, somebody's gotta come out with the updated mid-spec'd $3000 dRF.
Oh yeah, I'm with Dang-Wabbit: B&W film is cool!
mrrobleyleica
Member
This is a very expensive camera, not something I'll be shelling out for unless I hit gold in the garden. I'm REALLY not at all surprised that it's £6120 - over £1000 more than the M9 which is already pricey - looks way over the top. But how can anyone be that surprised when the S2 is over £20k, a new 24mm 1.4 lens is nearly £5000 and a simple hood for the tri-elmar is £204! We are looking at the wacky world of Leica pricing, where it would have been a much BIGGER shock it was affordable. I thought it would be about the same price as the M9, but hey ho, I'm wrong again.
And - If this is not made in huge number it will stay pricey for some time too even in S/H market.
On the subject of cost, don't most cameras look expensive now? Canon seem to have gone mad too, with quite a few primes well over £1000 and the 5DmkIII quite a bit more than the D800, Nikon too have gone crazy with the D4 etc etc. I'm sure that reasons, like the tsunami and general raw materials going up are compelling.
This is a massive, expanding market (mirrorless, SLR, high end all selling well), a new interest to many customers who do not remember when a new Zenit B was £18 (overpriced in my opinion). I think the Fuji X-1 pro system is over priced too, truth is that suckers, sorry - people will buy anything.
It's a feeling that comes with age, the shock at the cost of everyday stuff - newspaper £1.20, a small (but good) coffee for £2.50, a gallon of fuel is £6 plus ($9.6) - yes it is that much in the UK. We are the suckers here.
When petrol prices are this high I don't care what a camera costs!
And - If this is not made in huge number it will stay pricey for some time too even in S/H market.
On the subject of cost, don't most cameras look expensive now? Canon seem to have gone mad too, with quite a few primes well over £1000 and the 5DmkIII quite a bit more than the D800, Nikon too have gone crazy with the D4 etc etc. I'm sure that reasons, like the tsunami and general raw materials going up are compelling.
This is a massive, expanding market (mirrorless, SLR, high end all selling well), a new interest to many customers who do not remember when a new Zenit B was £18 (overpriced in my opinion). I think the Fuji X-1 pro system is over priced too, truth is that suckers, sorry - people will buy anything.
It's a feeling that comes with age, the shock at the cost of everyday stuff - newspaper £1.20, a small (but good) coffee for £2.50, a gallon of fuel is £6 plus ($9.6) - yes it is that much in the UK. We are the suckers here.
When petrol prices are this high I don't care what a camera costs!
ricnak
Well-known
an after school conversation with my 13yr old son....
From me...
Q. anything amazing happen at school today?
A. Nope
From him...
Q. anything amazing happen on RFF (the only interesting thing you do) today?
A. **** yeah! Leica announced a monochrome M.
His deadpan reply was - you should get one. You convert all your nice coloured pictures to sad black and white ones anyway.
I think the timing of the release of the M9M is perfect! Its Mother's day in 2 days time.
What do you think my chances are?
From me...
Q. anything amazing happen at school today?
A. Nope
From him...
Q. anything amazing happen on RFF (the only interesting thing you do) today?
A. **** yeah! Leica announced a monochrome M.
His deadpan reply was - you should get one. You convert all your nice coloured pictures to sad black and white ones anyway.
I think the timing of the release of the M9M is perfect! Its Mother's day in 2 days time.
What do you think my chances are?
