Ready to give up on Leica (wishing I wasn't)

jaapv said:
You postponed holidays to Europe over A CAMERA????:eek::eek::confused:
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Those were my thoughts too. As someone with significant experience in world travel, I can say with certainty it always costs something to change trip dates. Anything other than full-fare tickets are deemed "non refundable" and even using frequent-flyer miles there's some added cost involved in changing dates. And TTBOMK travel insurance doesn't cover postponements due to defective cameras ;) I'm the first to admit that camera equipment is at the very top of my list of things to take, and that I spend more time ruminating over it than anything else prior to a trip, but I can't even imagine postponing any travel, let alone international, due to a camera being in for service. Not that I'm trying to excuse Leica-USA's slow and sometimes hit-or-miss repair service, but this story sounds bizarre even to an anal, camera-obsessed, OCD guy like me :D
 
Ruby said:
Yeah, and it seems to happen quite a lot with the M8, so much so that there is a forum dedicated to it, HERE.

Was there ever another camera in history released with so many faults and so much time, hassle and money spent to get it working correctly?
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hear hear! i must admit that one should be careful when calling out leica... fanboism and the cult will come out of the wood works.

gluck rick.. i know you're just venting and the right venue to do it.
as an alternative, grab a lx3/dlux4 for your trip asap!
 
Jaap is right, for the M8, get a good one, and this is not likely a used one from a nameless faceless dealer in New York. I can't imagine where the bad ones go, except to those dealers.

I follow the owner of a big name Leica dealer on a social networking site. This person gets high blood pressure themself when anyone ever mentions M8, focus shift, or "is the mint Leica xxx really mint" ... they could care less about the camera working right, they're there to move boxes.
 
The problem here is not the camera, as unreliable as it might be.

But the service, and not coming through to the customer on legal obligations and set expectations. Not replacing the camera in the first place, not setting the right expectations about service time, not calling/emailing back and lying on the phone ("on the bench"). And I'm not talking about the retailer who sold the camera, but Leica NJ.

Even if it would be an isolated incident, it's wrong. And it's not isolated, there are many more reports like that. Internet, forums, whatever: it doesn't matter.

The only reason why Leica can do that, is because customers put up with it. Adds to the myth maybe, like once you can afford it, once you are lucky enough to have a good camera, it's the best you can get. Right.

You buy a Porsche, you expect product warranty and good service. The Porsche's reliability is an orthogonal issue.

Roland.
 
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Issues with the M8 aside, I do think you have your priorities wrong in repeatedly delaying a trip for a camera. The single best photo-heavy holiday in Europe I have had is walking around Italy with nothing but an 0-Series. I figured Italy had been photographed to death so I didn't need to worry about trying to capture iconic calendar shots, I could just shoot things that interested me, so that's what I did. Could have been accomplished with a Holga or point and shoot or just about anything.

The memories linger, the photographs sometimes don't.
 
Hi Rick,

I suggest posting your experience on the L-Camera Forum. ( http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/ )

A few big-wigs from Leica are on that forum and I'm sure that they don't like to be embarrassed. I remember one person that posted about bad experience with a faulty 75mm Summicron. If I remember correctly Stefan Daniel, Leica's product manager for the M system, personally apologized and offered to help. Christian Erhardt, Leica's VP of Marketing, also offered to help.
 
ruslan said:
I have bad experience in customer service with couple of European companies, like Leica, Broncolor (N1 worst service), Profoto, BMW, Volvo, and zero problem with American and Japanese service, maybe just me? :(
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We Germans have many mistakes. One is that we feel any form of customer service is beneath our dignity.

I'm sorry.
 
Tompas said:
We Germans have many mistakes. One is that we feel any form of customer service is beneath our dignity.

I'm sorry.
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I dont believe it's nationalistic. It stems from being comfortable and having a monopoly of the RF scene. Leica like many corporations suffer from this and eventually sort themselves.The beauty about corporate management is that you can sit there and do the least amount of work and reap the benefits. eg Bank CEOs...
 
Tompas said:
We Germans have many mistakes. One is that we feel any form of customer service is beneath our dignity.

I'm sorry.
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How does that explain that the CS problems are clearly with the independent branch in the USA and not with Solms, or at least to a far lesser extent?:confused:
 
ferider said:
You buy a Porsche, you expect product warranty and good service. The Porsche's reliability is an orthogonal issue.

Roland.
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You can expect good service, but at least in the US whetther you get it depends entirely on the particular service staff at the dealer you bought it from. Porsche-NA won't do diddley for a customer having a problem getting satisfactory service from the dealer (neither with Mercedes-NA or BMW-NA. Been there.) And I'd say Porsche reliability is more of an oxymoron than an orthogonality. Google "Porsche IMS failure". Makes the M8's "issues" seem pretty inconsequential by comparison. As an owner of an M8 and a Porsche, I can say that I might be ok owning the former without a warranty, but not the latter, not for a nanosecond.
 
Ben Z said:
As an owner of an M8 and a Porsche, I can say that I might be ok owning the former without a warranty, but not the latter, not for a nanosecond.
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And those I know who've owned both Ferraris and Porsches reckon the Porsches are more reliable. Oh, dear.

Cheers,

R.
 
Ben Z said:
You can expect good service, but at least in the US whetther you get it depends entirely on the particular service staff at the dealer you bought it from. Porsche-NA won't do diddley for a customer having a problem getting satisfactory service from the dealer (neither with Mercedes-NA or BMW-NA. Been there.) And I'd say Porsche reliability is more of an oxymoron than an orthogonality. Google "Porsche IMS failure". Makes the M8's "issues" seem pretty inconsequential by comparison. As an owner of an M8 and a Porsche, I can say that I might be ok owning the former without a warranty, but not the latter, not for a nanosecond.
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Hi Ben
Obviously reliability is the first concern. 100% reliable and the after sales support is irrelevent. Clearly there are issues with M8's (several with mine) and the problem is no one in the UK can fix it. Three trips to Solms took my camera out for a total of 18 weeks) Porsche dealer no problem. Just about any other make of camera has service in the UK. OK so no service in the UK for Leica, can the company offer a loaner? No chance! This for me is an issue which still stands in the way of me and an M9. I can accept reliability issues as long as they can be fixed quickly or indeed a replacement provided where a long delay might occur.

There again my Rolex Prince service took just under 1 year to turn around and there really is only one place in the UK that could do it, but at least a replacement watch is pretty straighforward!!

Richard
 
The comparison earlier in the thread between Leica Canon and Nikon regarding fault complaints is ludicrous. If you sell a zillion cameras a year X amount of units will create warranty issues for the manufacurer ... it's inevitable and it will be a factored cost of production by the said manufacturer.

Leica's production numbers are miniscule compared to these giants.

Crazy comparison IMO!
 
Stay away from any product distributed by HP Marketing--another NJ company. They distribute Linhof, Rodenstock, Wista, and Helipan. If something happens and you need warranty service from them, you will regret your purchase. (Actually, I would stay away from any NJ company. I am not sure customer service is a concept in the NJ/NYC area.)

Fortunately, you can order internationally. I like Rodenstock and Wista and I can get what I need from either Europe or Japan and bypass the US distributor. I am really glad Horsemen is no longer distributed by HP Marketing.
 
Keith said:
The comparison earlier in the thread between Leica Canon and Nikon regarding fault complaints is ludicrous. If you sell a zillion cameras a year X amount of units will create warranty issues for the manufacurer ... it's inevitable and it will be a factored cost of production by the said manufacturer.

Leica's production numbers are miniscule compared to these giants.

Crazy comparison IMO!
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I think the point was that Leica has a ten-fold net count on problems than Nikon which produces many more cameras. You are right that it is not scientific, but I would not expect more people to be bitching about their Leicas rather than their Nikons.

You are also right that returns and failures are factored in. Japanese companies are very sensitive to getting any of their products back for repair and they have excellent quality control because of it. The biggest cost is people returning cameras be cause they did not like them (or buying a camera for a weekend and returning it the next Monday for a refund (or buying multiple cameras and returning the ones they don't like)). That cost is passed on to the consumer. The country where it is the biggest problem is the US.
 
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