pmu
Well-known
I guess we have different expectations. IMO, the term "good enough" fits to cameras in 100-2000€ price range. When it goes over that, I expect more than that. "very good", "great", "amazing", "perfect" -- those kind of words I am looking for. I would like to be completely amazed about every (limited) aspect and feature of that 6-7K€ camera. I guess I am asking too much.
A tiny example: I have once tried MP. What does that cost, 3K€, or something like that? That is completely horrible price for a 35mm film body, but you know what: the camera felt really perfect. Absolutely everything felt right about it -- the term "good enough" was completely missing, like it should in a product like that. Since then, the price of MP has not felt too big or overpriced. Sure, it's a huge load of money and I would never buy MP new, but the camera really felt much much much better than good enough.
I hope the upcoming M would not be good enough. I hope it would be at least very good, in all aspects.
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mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
Not me.
I have. In fact I bought one, just recently, as it happens. I couldn't afford it. Except... for a relative who left me some money with instructions to spend it on something that I'd enjoy, and that would be completely self-indulgent. So I indulged. It's a wonderful camera and I'm very much enjoying it.
...Mike
YYV_146
Well-known
Great review, Roger.
I used a friend's type 240 for a few weeks (gave him my lux FLE) and did enjoy the camera. Could I afford it at the current street price? Yes. But for what it does and delivers, I find it very difficult to justify one at $6,500.
Now, if I did more street photography or had more lenses I could use on an M without hurting my eyes trying to focus, I would already have one. If the price dropped to $4,500 tomorrow, then I'd buy one without hesitation. But as it is I don't find the price/performance/user experience ratios favorable, and will be waiting for a future M.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
It's good enough now especially in the areas that really matter. Just go to one of the Canon sites and read how screwed up all the Canons are especially after they release a new camera. Same at the Nikon sites. Try digital Leica M, MM or even and M9 and see for yourself instead of reading about it. There is nothing I enjoy shooting with more. They are all a huge load of money. LIke I said before top of the line Canon and Nikon are about the same price as Leica M and I remember when Leica M was more than twice the price so Leica M is now the bargain. So you have real Leica M digital shooters telling you that they are great cameras here at RFF in this thread and have seen the MM can run with a Nikon d800 when talking something very important like DR and IQ but you immediately dismiss those opinions. Why? because you have already made up your mind without seeing for yourself. If you really enjoy the rangefinder shooting experience then you are probably afraid to try one because if you really love that experience, once you try one you will probably be buying one.
tightsqueez
Well-known
Agreed. The MM can run with the D800E (I have both). Interestingly, with the MM/M9 and 50 APO I can smoke the D800E with the Otus in terms of getting shots on target. The Otus is a great lens but the 50 APO is much, much more accessible... and that's what matters.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
I totally agree....THey are just very different cameras. The d800 is a fine camera but as I stated before the Leica M is just so much better at doing some things as the d800 is a better tool for others. But many have been totally sold that their camera has to be everything. One size fits all mentality and we all know thats just not true. There are some cameras better for some things than others are.
All the technical advances this is still the king of B&W zone system photography. Over a century old design. No say it ain't so...LoL
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_gl4umL31...orff-8x10-view-camera-outfit_250755873208.jpg
pmu
Well-known
If you are going to reply to this message, please first read my previous messages again and also read the following so many times that you really understand it:
Getting shots on target? What does that mean...?
Either way, you are comparing 13K€ setup to a 6K€ setup, so it should not be a surprise to anyone that the 13K€ might be better in some way
airfrogusmc
Veteran
If you are going to reply to this message, please first read my previous messages again and also read the following so many times that you really understand it:
Getting shots on target? What does that mean...?
Either way, you are comparing 13K€ setup to a 6K€ setup, so it should not be a surprise to anyone that the 13K€ might be better in some way
Then what has been your argument. You came into this thread to try and say us Leica owners were only buying because of name and we should all be smart like you and buy a d800. Thats the reality of this argument of yours because all the rest holds no weight.
Leica glass is expensive but won't loose money in fact with some Leica glass you actually my get more for it when you decide to sell it. Try that with your Nicanon stuff. In fact buy an M or an MM and use it for a while and when you go to sell it you will probably get most of your money back and it would be a lot cheaper than renting.
But the bottom line gets back again to you having NO first hand knowledge. You've only read stuff on the internet. So did you not read all the Nikon d800 hate? The Canon 5DIII hate? I think both of those cameras are great cameras.
The perfect camera will never be made but you can certainly, as Ernst Haas pointed out in the quote that i posted, find one perfectly capable of capturing what you see. The important part is you have to see.
Leica is the right tool for certain things but like a d800 it is not the perfect tool for everything. I know thats hard for the one size fits all crowd.
eleskin
Well-known
Money & name
Money & name
Ahh, Leica is very expensive, but I can say I chose it for image quality. If I was a Leica Snob, I would not have also bought Fuji and Sony as well. I just feel bad Leica is so expensive. I guess I can tolerate it at $7000, but anything above that and they will loose me.
Money & name
Ahh, Leica is very expensive, but I can say I chose it for image quality. If I was a Leica Snob, I would not have also bought Fuji and Sony as well. I just feel bad Leica is so expensive. I guess I can tolerate it at $7000, but anything above that and they will loose me.
eleskin
Well-known
Lenses
Lenses
I have NEVER bought a new Leica lens, only used, and they ALL have gone up in value!
Lenses
I have NEVER bought a new Leica lens, only used, and they ALL have gone up in value!
pmu
Well-known
Where did I say that?
I actually recommend NOT to buy D800 or any other DSLR if you don't like to shoot with that kind of cameras About that Leica SD card which is very slow and outrageously expensive compared to the best (industry standard) SD cards in the market: yes, if someone buys that, the reason has to be the Leica logo.Yes I did, so what's your point? I read all the good and bad reviews and then evaluated them against my needs, wants and the price of the product. And then I bought the D800. This time I was reading all the good and bad MM and M240 reviews and compared them to my needs, wants and the price of the product. And decided not to buy them. Simple?
I am not telling that you or anyone else can't be happy with your MM's or that you should be smart and buy D800. If you don't understand it, sorry, I can't help you more than this. Peace.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
Then what have you been saying over the last cazillion pages? Do you even know?
I guess I have to really spell it out for you..
If you listen to any of these negative comments, and they are out there for every camera made, you will not buy anything.
I guess I have to really spell it out for you..
If you listen to any of these negative comments, and they are out there for every camera made, you will not buy anything.
tightsqueez
Well-known
Getting shots on target? What does that mean...?
Either way, you are comparing 13K€ setup to a 6K€ setup, so it should not be a surprise to anyone that the 13K€ might be better in some way
Proper focus in ANY area of the frame and more importantly done so fast.
The more expensive setup is better in some ways, as is the cheaper setup is better in others. It's up to the photographer to balance the +/- of each tool to achieve his or her desired results in the most direct way.
pmu
Well-known
Yes I do. I'm not going to repeat any of it anymore.
I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall, so instead of hurting my head like this :bang: I will give up and tell you that digital M Leicas are excellent tools and the price is completely OK. It's also 100% fine that that MM is in some ways "good enough" instead of "excellent". MM is my dream, I love them, I love you. God bless Leica owners, and double bless Leica MM owners.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
I don't get it? Looks like me and a bunch of other folks to then. So your right and we're all wrong yet you have been arguing about something that you have NO experience but you have read about it and many here have shared their REAL experience so yeah your right we're all wrong.
pmu
Well-known
I'm not surprised at this and I fully agree. IMO manual focusing with any DSLR (or even SLR's) sucks 100% when compared to rangefinders. That's one of the reasons why I'm hoping that the next M would be without shortcomings. Maybe that will be "the" camera for me.
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airfrogusmc
Veteran
So you have real experience with these shortcomings?My advice buy one and if you experience those awful shortcomings sell it and get most if not all of your money back. I would tell you to sell the d800 but as good of a camera as it is I think you will probably probably take a pretty good hit.
pmu
Well-known
Food for thought: It seems that you know better how I shoot and what kind of qualities I need in my camera that I can comfortably do my work? Could it possible, that I can evaluate it better than you?
Please don't answer. The questions are rhetoric.
Lss
Well-known
The reason may be convenience. People who buy new Leica cameras usually have some money. If the seller throws in an SD card or two, perhaps at a reduced yet still outrageous price, it is convenient for the buyer and nice profit for the seller. To actively seek out these Leica cards would definitely look funny to anyone with some understanding of the technology, but I assume such buyers are in the minority.
The one thing I learnt from this thread is that Leica actually sells SD cards. Funny but understandable.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
I have never said how you should shoot. Where do you read this stuff.? I don't care how you shoot or what you shoot with. I hate to pop your bubble but this isn't a thread about YOU. I do know, per your own words, you have never shot with what you seem to know so much about. Now if I wander into a d800 thread and I start talking about stuff I really have little first hand knowledge about I would hope that you show me the error of my ways. So many of us are so wrong and you are so right.
The MM is an EXCELLENT tool. Perfect? Like every camera, no way, but it can certainly capture my vision. Seems to work just fine for Ralph Gibson and many other very good photographers and also really good photographers that post here. As far as digital M there are other many fine photographers that seem to do very good with that EXCELLENT tool. I think both Meyerowitz and Jill Freedman both shoot with M9s. Remember these photographers and myself included can all shoot with whatever we want to shoot with and we choose what we choose because it works for us.
The MM is an EXCELLENT tool. Perfect? Like every camera, no way, but it can certainly capture my vision. Seems to work just fine for Ralph Gibson and many other very good photographers and also really good photographers that post here. As far as digital M there are other many fine photographers that seem to do very good with that EXCELLENT tool. I think both Meyerowitz and Jill Freedman both shoot with M9s. Remember these photographers and myself included can all shoot with whatever we want to shoot with and we choose what we choose because it works for us.