tanel
Established
I had the same question some time ago as stated on the first post.
Ended up with M6 and never have I been happier about having a new camera. And I've had a quite few cameras.
I'm still going to get a external light meter though.
Ended up with M6 and never have I been happier about having a new camera. And I've had a quite few cameras.
I'm still going to get a external light meter though.
Creagerj
Incidental Artist
Then again, the more I look at the M2, the more I like it.
Instantclassic
Hans
Now you´re talking 
In other words; You are talking in a way I can understand...
In other words; You are talking in a way I can understand...
Turtle
Veteran
I find the meter in the MP and M6 so easy to use with accuracy I have never used the external meter I bought... I get better exposures than with any camera I have ever used. Ridiculous to some considering how simple it is, but there is the first clue!
to the OP, if you get a M2 be sure to check for finder issues with balsam separation, yellowing etc and protect the camera from shocks than can bring this problem about.
M2s are lovely cameras (I have one) if you are happy to work without an internal meter. Very personally, I am not.
to the OP, if you get a M2 be sure to check for finder issues with balsam separation, yellowing etc and protect the camera from shocks than can bring this problem about.
M2s are lovely cameras (I have one) if you are happy to work without an internal meter. Very personally, I am not.
Creagerj
Incidental Artist
I'm ok with going meter-less, I'm a human light meter (I also carry a real light meter just in case).
I guess black is a silly qualifier, and it doesn't make a difference. Its just a personal preference anyway.
I guess black is a silly qualifier, and it doesn't make a difference. Its just a personal preference anyway.
Jaime M
Established
Thats is what exactly thought 8 months ago when I bought mine.
You won't regret even you miss a light meter.
gnuyork
Well-known
I was in a similar situation. I really wanted to have a Leica M. I considered the Bessas, but in the end I knew that I'd really still want the M. I got a really good deal on an M6 barely used for a great price on Ebay.
The pictures did not do the camera justice. I put in a low ball max bid thinking the camera was in rough shape (due to the pic) and went to the movies. When I came back I saw that I won the camera. Then I thought "great - now I have to pay for it..." When it came in the mail it looked brand new and still had the plastic wrapping on the bottom. I really lucked out. Got it for $900.
For a while I borrowed a lens from a friend until I got my first Summicron. A 50mm (with built in lens shade) used from KEH.
I don't regret any of this. The camera and lens are a joy to use and shoot with. I get excellent results from it. And I also have at least 20 other cameras and the M6 is easily one of my favorites. Now I need to get a wider angle lens - 21 or 24, and a 35.
The pictures did not do the camera justice. I put in a low ball max bid thinking the camera was in rough shape (due to the pic) and went to the movies. When I came back I saw that I won the camera. Then I thought "great - now I have to pay for it..." When it came in the mail it looked brand new and still had the plastic wrapping on the bottom. I really lucked out. Got it for $900.
For a while I borrowed a lens from a friend until I got my first Summicron. A 50mm (with built in lens shade) used from KEH.
I don't regret any of this. The camera and lens are a joy to use and shoot with. I get excellent results from it. And I also have at least 20 other cameras and the M6 is easily one of my favorites. Now I need to get a wider angle lens - 21 or 24, and a 35.
gnuyork
Well-known
I get surprisingly accurate exposures as well using the meter in the M6.
Livesteamer
Well-known
Don't Do It!!! You are at the top of a slippery slope. You get one and then you want more. I got my first Leica in 1990 and I 've been hooked ever since. It has been great fun. I just got my eighth Leica, a Ia from 1929 and it works! Good Luck and Enjoy. Joe
I know that this lens is good, but why would a new M user want to use a lens that his camera doesn't have framelines for?
While you are correct, and I'd go as far as to say the R4a/m has no Leica equal... it is worth noting that there is a different feel to older Leicas (or Leicas in general) than the M-Mount Bessas. The shutter is different, the construction is different, and the design is different (and generally more appealing it would seem). These things won't necessarily make you take better photos, but they could make you want to use your camera more. That said, the R4 is quite the camera and I'd love to own one. I may sooner than later.
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BillBingham2
Registered User
Joe,
Just for giggles I strongly recommend that you look at a Nikon S2. You already own Nikon SLRs you might find a camera system that handles the same as what you're use to empowering, I did. I owned Leicas (M6 & M4-P) and Bessas (T, L, R) for years and loved them. I found that I liked to carry a long lens to reach out to some things from time to time. It worked great but I found that when I switched from rangefinder to SLR. I adjust exposure and focus as I bring my camera to face. Leica goes one way and Nikon goes another.
I've posted my experience many times here in great detail, do a search and I'm sure you will find more than just me. The Nikon S2/SP/S3 are one hand cameras (you can adjust focus with your middle finger on your right hand) with a 50 and lower. Very fast handling, easy to use and a bright finder. A good S2 with a great 50/1.5 Nikkor and a CV 28/3.5 which you use full finder (no external finder for a 28) for well within your budget.
I loved both my Leicas and my Nikons (I've owned an S2 and a S3-2000), but when I go back to owning a film RF it will be a Nikon, odds are a S2.
B2 (;->
Just for giggles I strongly recommend that you look at a Nikon S2. You already own Nikon SLRs you might find a camera system that handles the same as what you're use to empowering, I did. I owned Leicas (M6 & M4-P) and Bessas (T, L, R) for years and loved them. I found that I liked to carry a long lens to reach out to some things from time to time. It worked great but I found that when I switched from rangefinder to SLR. I adjust exposure and focus as I bring my camera to face. Leica goes one way and Nikon goes another.
I've posted my experience many times here in great detail, do a search and I'm sure you will find more than just me. The Nikon S2/SP/S3 are one hand cameras (you can adjust focus with your middle finger on your right hand) with a 50 and lower. Very fast handling, easy to use and a bright finder. A good S2 with a great 50/1.5 Nikkor and a CV 28/3.5 which you use full finder (no external finder for a 28) for well within your budget.
I loved both my Leicas and my Nikons (I've owned an S2 and a S3-2000), but when I go back to owning a film RF it will be a Nikon, odds are a S2.
B2 (;->
SimonSawSunlight
Simon Fabel
take the cheapest damn working/user M (M3/M2/M4/M4-2/M4-P/M6/M7/MP or even M5 if you like that beast) you can find. any will do a great job. save money for glass.
Krosya
Konicaze
All I can tell you is my own experience. I wanted a Leica. I started with Bessa R. Great camera. But I still wanted a Leica. So I got M3. Not bad, but not as great for me as I was expecting after reading some opinions. As someone said earlier - they are getting old and VFs are getting bad, other things wear out, so CLA is a must, at times it will cost as much as the camera. I also hated the knob rewind. Bottom loading is something to get used to - it's better on some models than others. Than I got a famous M6. Nise, but it had that nasty VF patch flare, that made it unusable, so to DAG it went, plus a CLA. Again - lots of money. Both sold now. Later I discovered an "ugly Leica" M5. Out of all Leicas it appealed the most to me - different, yet very smart design. Great meter. Great shutter speed wheel. Great racheted rewind. Easy bottom loading. And still had that "old" Leica quality to it. I'd recommend reading this about it:
http://photo.net/equipment/leica/m5/
So, if you ask me - I'd say - if you have to have Leica - take a serious look at M5.
Having said that, another great camera is Hexar RF. Offers lots of things and well built. I like it so much - I have 3 of them, although it seems too much even for me, so I may sell one, as I have several different RF cameras.
I'd read this about it:
http://www.dantestella.com/technical/hexarrf.html
As far as lenses - well, personal choice, really. Many great 50's out there. I found that best all around e is M-Hexanon 50/2. But there are many others, like Planar ZM, Summicron, different variations of Sonnar. CV Nokton 50/1.5 is a very good lens too.
Well, good luck with your first M.
http://photo.net/equipment/leica/m5/
So, if you ask me - I'd say - if you have to have Leica - take a serious look at M5.
Having said that, another great camera is Hexar RF. Offers lots of things and well built. I like it so much - I have 3 of them, although it seems too much even for me, so I may sell one, as I have several different RF cameras.
I'd read this about it:
http://www.dantestella.com/technical/hexarrf.html
As far as lenses - well, personal choice, really. Many great 50's out there. I found that best all around e is M-Hexanon 50/2. But there are many others, like Planar ZM, Summicron, different variations of Sonnar. CV Nokton 50/1.5 is a very good lens too.
Well, good luck with your first M.
JSU
-
Joe--
I'm not trying to talk down to you or suggest you are not sufficiently informed.
Cameraquest is both a sponsor of this website as well as a wealth of information. Consider looking at the M Guide on Cameraquest for details specific to the camera(s) in which you are interested.
http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm
The essential difference between the M4-2 and the M4-P, and I have owned and used both, is the finder. If you are planning to use but the 50mm lens, then you may find the coincidental 75mm marks in the M4-P mask set bothersome, thus the M4-2 might be a better choice.
Be mindful that during the production run of the M4-P the VF glass went from recessed to flush with the front of the camera. Many prefer the earlier VF as the flush fit finders exhibit a greater tendency to white out with flare.
If you want perhaps the single best VF for only the 35, 50 & 90 lenses and a removable reloading spool instead of the Tri-Y fixed spool of the M4 & later bodies, then the M2 could be a consideration.
When purchasing a used Leica M body it is worth the effort and perhaps added expense to buy with an understanding that it can be returned for full refund within 7 - 10 days. As soon as you get your new to you camera run a roll of film though it shooting both in and out of doors. Test the rangefinder at near, mid and far distances, test the shutter at most if not all speeds, particularly 1/1000 & 1/500 as well as the slow speeds. Leica M bodies can loose shutter accuracy if not used for long periods of time, but they typically can be restored as well. But if you don't want to buy a project camera, test it as soon as possible and if need be, return it and keep looking if it isn't a keeper.
One thing to keep in mind, regardless of buying a brand or a specific camera, are details such as the effective RF base length. If you plan to use very fast lenses wide open, the effective base length of the Leica M cameras (except maybe the .58x finder) is longer than that of the Bessa cameras, providing an edge in focussing accuracy.
--JSU
I'm not trying to talk down to you or suggest you are not sufficiently informed.
Cameraquest is both a sponsor of this website as well as a wealth of information. Consider looking at the M Guide on Cameraquest for details specific to the camera(s) in which you are interested.
http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm
The essential difference between the M4-2 and the M4-P, and I have owned and used both, is the finder. If you are planning to use but the 50mm lens, then you may find the coincidental 75mm marks in the M4-P mask set bothersome, thus the M4-2 might be a better choice.
Be mindful that during the production run of the M4-P the VF glass went from recessed to flush with the front of the camera. Many prefer the earlier VF as the flush fit finders exhibit a greater tendency to white out with flare.
If you want perhaps the single best VF for only the 35, 50 & 90 lenses and a removable reloading spool instead of the Tri-Y fixed spool of the M4 & later bodies, then the M2 could be a consideration.
When purchasing a used Leica M body it is worth the effort and perhaps added expense to buy with an understanding that it can be returned for full refund within 7 - 10 days. As soon as you get your new to you camera run a roll of film though it shooting both in and out of doors. Test the rangefinder at near, mid and far distances, test the shutter at most if not all speeds, particularly 1/1000 & 1/500 as well as the slow speeds. Leica M bodies can loose shutter accuracy if not used for long periods of time, but they typically can be restored as well. But if you don't want to buy a project camera, test it as soon as possible and if need be, return it and keep looking if it isn't a keeper.
One thing to keep in mind, regardless of buying a brand or a specific camera, are details such as the effective RF base length. If you plan to use very fast lenses wide open, the effective base length of the Leica M cameras (except maybe the .58x finder) is longer than that of the Bessa cameras, providing an edge in focussing accuracy.
--JSU
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Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Creageri,
You say...
“Additionally, I think it is unfair to say I am only interested in the brand since I am willing to look at non Leica lenses, in fact its probably the rout I'll go.”
“Exactly, if I wanted a bessa I would have bought one any time. I want a Leica, always have. I have a Canon L-1, and it is a great camera, even thought it is a bit used, but it doesn't scratch the itch.”
Maybe a little contradiction here?
You need a Leica. Get any of them.
Cheers,
Juan
You say...
“Additionally, I think it is unfair to say I am only interested in the brand since I am willing to look at non Leica lenses, in fact its probably the rout I'll go.”
“Exactly, if I wanted a bessa I would have bought one any time. I want a Leica, always have. I have a Canon L-1, and it is a great camera, even thought it is a bit used, but it doesn't scratch the itch.”
Maybe a little contradiction here?
You need a Leica. Get any of them.
Cheers,
Juan
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
bob338,
I think there are thousands of working Bessas all around, and very few of them have had problems. You might be using your imagination co create a different reality. I'm not saying Leicas are bad, but they give a lot of problems because of their age, precisely because most of Leicas in the world are old.
About your question on initial run R Bessas, I've never had one in my hands, but I have heard R3 and R4 are the best Bessas... When I shoot with my R4M I feel it as strong as my Hasselblad.
You clearly think some of us don't have a Leica because we can't buy one... Come on! Those cameras are normally priced... Even an MP! Any common person with a common job can buy a Leica. I use ten cameras in all formats, and even my digital body costs more than an MP... Don't be so imaginative again...
Cheers,
Juan
januaryman
"Flim? You want flim?"
This is funny, as it is exactly what I was going to say, except for the 50mm. I wasn't going to suggest one, but if I were to recommend a 50, the Canon 50/1.8 is just as amazing as the 1.4 but cheaper.
SimonSawSunlight
Simon Fabel
my m2 was half the price of most bessas, I can afford a leica indeed (more than one, even. and I'm everything but rich or very 'wealthy'.). it is about 52 years old, works perfectly and feels more solid than any bessa I've had in my hands.
if someone feels like getting a leica, why not let her/him without stigmatising her/him so much in one or the other direction?
same for someone who wants to get a bessa.
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januaryman
"Flim? You want flim?"
I beg to differ! Check out my avatar. Not too shabby, I think.
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