JeremyLangford
I'd really Leica Leica
So the colored filters we have only affect the contrast if you have Variable Contrast paper. Without Variable Contrast paper, you wouldn't ever use a colored filter right?
What Filters?
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JeremyLangford
I'd really Leica Leica
I think my teacher is ordering me a pack of this paper. It says it is variable contrast.
http://www.adorama.com/ILMG481040G.html
http://www.adorama.com/ILMG481040G.html
venchka
Veteran
You're on the right track. Ilford Multi-Grade paper is a variable contrast paper. Ilford supplies filters from grade 00 (lowest contrast) to 5 (highest contrast). In practice you should aim for exposing and developing your negatives so that they print "normally" with Grade 2 filter and minimal dodging and burning. When you get to that point, you can start introducing variables like over/under exposing and over/under developing to adjust the contrast range of your negatives. You can also experiment with different contrast grade filters when printing. And introduce the yellow and red filters you are dying to use.
Have fun! That's the main goal.
Have fun! That's the main goal.
JeremyLangford
I'd really Leica Leica
So I made a pinhole camera today and tomorrow I'm going to be exposing sheets of that Ilford 8X10 variable contrast paper inside the pinhole camera. Because I have no filter on the pinhole camera, won't the picture be of lowest contrast possible?
venchka
Veteran
I'm clueless. As usual. Using paper to make a negative is, well, different. Be sure to post the results! We want to see! You didn't think this Online Classroom was free did you?
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
No. As far as I know, with no filter, the multigrade paper will be subject to whatever the predominant color in the scene is as its filter. (which will probably have very little effect, actually... it should print as a mid grade paper, medium contrast).
(to print as the lowest contrast, it would need to have something roughly matching the 00 filter color, which I think is an yellow color, additional magenta raises contrast).
(to print as the lowest contrast, it would need to have something roughly matching the 00 filter color, which I think is an yellow color, additional magenta raises contrast).
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JeremyLangford
I'd really Leica Leica
Here is an 8x10 pinhole picture I made the last time I was in Photography class. (I flipped it horizontally and vertically and inverted it in Photoshop).
JeremyLangford
I'd really Leica Leica
Oh. That makes sense.
JeremyLangford
I'd really Leica Leica
What about the speed of photographic paper? With my pinhole camera, I have complete control over aperture and shutter speed. The only other variable would be film speed. Do all photographic papers have a kind of universal speed?
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
most papers have an asa equivalent speed of about 4 or 6. So they're pretty slow.
JeremyLangford
I'd really Leica Leica
Sometimes I wonder if there is any little fact about photography you don't know. A while back in another thread, you taught me for like half an hour everything I wanted to know about scanning and resolution.
Thanks
JeremyLangford
I'd really Leica Leica
Am I right in thinking that fixers and stop baths can be bought and used for both prints and negatives but for developing, you have to buy a seperate paper and negative developer? And that all of these chemicals are sold in powder and liquid form only. And that you are supposed to always dilute these chemicals with water?
Thats a lot of questions but I'm trying to really get down all I can about the B&W film process.
Thats a lot of questions but I'm trying to really get down all I can about the B&W film process.
foto_mike
Established
I don't want to take this too far off topic but if you're experimenting with exposing paper directly with a pinhole camera, play around with making an image directly from the enlarger as well. By that, I mean photograms.
Just arrange some ordinary objects on the paper under the enlarger and expose it for a few seconds. Develop normally.
Just arrange some ordinary objects on the paper under the enlarger and expose it for a few seconds. Develop normally.
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
😀 You're more than welcome. I've collected alot of technical information (and experimented - a great teacher) over the years. Lots of things I don't know - I choose not to respond when I really don't, that way it doesn't show as much. 🙂
As far as your chemistry questions go. Stop and Fix are generally universal - there is some debate about fixer with hardener, but I personally use the same fixer (Ilford universal) from liquid concentrate, and dilute with water to it's recommended strengths for each use. Stop bath (kodak indicator stop) is the same. Or you can even just use a water bath, or water with a little white vinegar in it if you're saving money. (you might have to adjust your dev times slightly, experience will tell)
Some developers can be used for both paper and film - HC-110 can be made to work for paper, and Dektol can be made to work with film, just to name a few examples - but in my experience neither is optimal. I'd personally stick to one separate one for each and really learn them well.
If you have good tap water (not overly softened, or otherwise chlorinated) you can use that for dilution. Some people like to buy something to either filter the water (inline - good for washing too) or buy water that's been filtered a bit. All depends on what's available to you.
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JeremyLangford
I'd really Leica Leica
Ok heres another thing I've been wondering. What if I have a scene that I think could look great with a red filter and black and white film but I only have color film. Could I shoot the picture with a red filter and then convert the picture to B&W later in photoshop to achieve the same affect? Or would you have to shoot it onto B&W film to achieve the red filter affect?
venchka
Veteran
Personally, I think the answer to that one is to expose the color film as normal. Then Photoshop the heck out of the negative. There are several web sites with lots & lots of black & white conversion techniques. Pretty cool stuff. GOOGLE can fine them.
Which brings me to.............If digital photography is the answer to all of Mankind's Photographic and Graphic Needs, why is it that all the digi-folk bust their mouses and buy all sorts of software and Photoshop Actions trying to make thier JEPGs look like Tri-X???????????????? Or platimum prints? Huh?
Just an observation.
On pinhole cameras: Theoretically, there is only one optimum hole diameter for any given focal length. There are pinhole calculators on the internet. Have you tried sheet film in a pinhole camera? Great fun! By the way, if paper is ASA 4 or 6, that isn't much slower than me loading Efke R25 in the Big Pentax and screwing on a yellow or red filter.
Universal Developer: Ansco 130 was, and still is, touted as the Universal Developer. It is still being made. I think Freestyle sells it. Save this idea for later. APUG has a long sticky thread on Ansco 130. Cool stuff. It's on my long term want to try list.
I'm thinking this thread deserves sticky status and a title like "Photography 101".
Which brings me to.............If digital photography is the answer to all of Mankind's Photographic and Graphic Needs, why is it that all the digi-folk bust their mouses and buy all sorts of software and Photoshop Actions trying to make thier JEPGs look like Tri-X???????????????? Or platimum prints? Huh?
Just an observation.
On pinhole cameras: Theoretically, there is only one optimum hole diameter for any given focal length. There are pinhole calculators on the internet. Have you tried sheet film in a pinhole camera? Great fun! By the way, if paper is ASA 4 or 6, that isn't much slower than me loading Efke R25 in the Big Pentax and screwing on a yellow or red filter.
Universal Developer: Ansco 130 was, and still is, touted as the Universal Developer. It is still being made. I think Freestyle sells it. Save this idea for later. APUG has a long sticky thread on Ansco 130. Cool stuff. It's on my long term want to try list.
I'm thinking this thread deserves sticky status and a title like "Photography 101".
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
I've been lurking on this thread and the generousity of everyones' mentoring is something really great.
I also have created dramatic skys without red or yellow fiters. Generally I just use a skylight that just tones down the blue slightly instead of a UV filter to protect the lense. There is no filter factor. The advice given above about making a good negitive and learning how to control contrast in the darkroom is very good advice.
I imagine with your advanced learning curve, eventually you will be able to print on a staight grade 2 paper without filters, leaving multigrade papers and variable contrast filters behind. At this point you would have mastered a lot about exposure and developement.
Less is more.
Good luck
Cal
venchka
Veteran
Aye. It sure worked for Ansel Adams. At least the myth is that he alayws aimed for negatives that printed normally on #2 paper. Then I got his book Examples for Christmas. The world wasn't perfect even for Ansel Adams. He resorted to different papers for different negatives. He also found that not all Grade #2 papers are created equally. To his credit he didn't vary much. Maybe + or - 1 grade. He was also a master of dodging, burning and the invisible vignette.
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JeremyLangford
I'd really Leica Leica
If I wanted to end up with a positive 8x10 print instead of a negative 8x10 print from my 8x10 size pinhole camera would I have to use 8x10 sheet film and then enlarge that onto an 8x10 piece of paper? Or that a type of 8x10 photographer paper that I can load into my pinhole camera that will come out positive instead of negative?
Doesn't there have to be a type of paper like this? If not then how are 35mm slides developed?
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
if you use 8x10 paper in the pinhole - you get a negative image. You can print to a positive by making it a "paper negative"
If you use 8x10 sheet film you get a negative, that you can then contact print on paper to a positive (nice because it's already easily reproducible).
If you are enlarging color slides, you have to use reversal paper and processing (cibachrome, fuji type R, etc.) Which you could theoretically use in the pinhole, but the processing is a pain in the ass to do on a small scale unless you're already set up for color lab work.
If you use 8x10 sheet film you get a negative, that you can then contact print on paper to a positive (nice because it's already easily reproducible).
If you are enlarging color slides, you have to use reversal paper and processing (cibachrome, fuji type R, etc.) Which you could theoretically use in the pinhole, but the processing is a pain in the ass to do on a small scale unless you're already set up for color lab work.
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