Hold off on the M10, Konost coming end of 2017

[Spanik]

Here's something to chew on. Laugh at Konost if you will, but in two years, Konost will have a better chance of surviving than Nikon. And it's certainly possible neither one will be around.

I hope you mean Nikon Photo because if they stop making steppers we're going to miss a lot.

 

[radi(c)al_cam]

It is all ferrania to me.

???

(10char)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrania

Yes I know who Ferrania is, I backed their KS. Context????

It's a pun!

Ferrania is a toponym, like Greece, the country of the Greek speaking, or The Netherlands, the country of the Dutch speaking.
What Ko.Fe. is saying, is: «It's all Greek to me», or «It's all double Dutch to me.»

 

[brennanphotoguy]

Conversely, does anyone here have any reason to suspect they are lying? What would they gain from just trolling? I mean, they didn't do a Kickstarter and take people's money. They haven't come out and said it was just a project for a class. If it doesn't come out, who cares? It doesn't change my life. Does anyone here have any reason to suspect they are lying or is it just easy to be cynical on the internet?

They have promised over and over again to open preorders and/or have a demo model "at the end of the year." They have done nothing except post renderings that circulate the internet periodically. For all we know, it's that prosophos person coming up with random ideas in his basement.

 

[jsrockit]

They have promised over and over again to open preorders and/or have a demo model "at the end of the year." They have done nothing except post renderings that circulate the internet periodically. For all we know, it's that prosophos person coming up with random ideas in his basement.

And for all we know it is a company that is working on a serious project that has a lot more on its plate than giving updates to forum geeks (myself included). Over and over again... that's a bit of a exaggeration. I guess my point is that they haven't updated their site until so many people asked them to provide an update. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[jsrockit]

Leica doesn't need my encouragement. Leica has already mastered separating people from their money using off the shelf digital components that other cameras makers incorporate and introduce sooner and at far less cost to the consumer---and not to mention in a manner that is likely far better executed.

So, really... you can't see any uniqueness in Leica's current product line?

 

[fireblade]

Uh...sure...yup..they are going to go head to head w/Leica..
I'm going to feed my unicorn now..lol..

I went out with a girl who use to ride unicorns.......i was in a constant drug induced state in those days.

 

[dmr]

I still say this is all vaporware.

Seriously, I really wish the guy luck! It actually sounds like something I might be interested in.

 

[willie_901]

People make it sound so simple to throw a well-engineered digital camera together from scratch. Well, it's nothing at all like going on line and and buying a bunch of PC components and assembling a cost effective computer system.

I do not think Leica's:

• firmware, including the image processing engine, is off the shelf
• color-filter array assembly is off the shelf
• micro-lens assembly is off the shelf
• integrated design optimized for M/LTM optics is off the shelf

Leica did have a significant challenge others does not.

Most importantly Leica's customer service is not off the shelf. A new player would have to create an effective Customer Support/Service infrastructure from scratch.

 

[Skiff]

Honestly, to discuss the Konost at this time is just a waste of time.
Let's just see
- whether there really will be a camera
- when there will be a camera
- if there finally is a real camera, let's test them
- let's then see how the results are
- let's finally see whether the newcomer company can stand the brutal competition and the declining market and can survive (survival is needed for the customers).

 

[jszokoli]

I think many people are in for a surprise. With Nikon struggling, just look at the recent strings, I think that the reality that a pro level camera can be had for a reasonable price will be shattered.

As much as people think that Leica is gouging, I think that their $6500-8000 (SL, M, M10) prices actually reflect what it cost to produce these cameras. Currently Leica lenses also stand alone as far as price goes, but as the consumer market vanishes the price pressures will substantially increase the price of lenses from other makers.

It revolves around economies of scale. Remember that even the Cosina rangefinders were supported by the other models that were being made under subcontract for other makers.

So, hold on to your hats, I feel that Leica alone actually is on a sustainable path while other makers may not be. However I am hopeful that Nikon will survive by making substantial changes to the way they do business in their camera division.

As for Konost, I find it laughable that a MBA who likes cameras can really leverage that to compete in the market. Leica has been operating in this market for, what, 100 years and understands the reality of it. It is by all appearances a get rich quick scheme to bilk some venture capital guys out of a boat-load of money. Remember you don't need a product, just a pitch...


Joe

 

[jsrockit]

As much as people think that Leica is gouging, I think that their $6500-8000 (SL, M, M10) prices actually reflect what it cost to produce these cameras.

Leica is a luxury brand and there's no doubt these are expensive to make... I wouldn't call them gouging, but it has to be marking its cameras up significantly just based on the fact that they don't mass produce (in comparison to other consumer brands).

 

[Brooklynguy]

People make it sound so simple to throw a well-engineered digital camera together from scratch...A new player would have to create an effective Customer Support/Service infrastructure from scratch.

Don't you just buy camera sensors from cheapsonysensors and exotic optical glass at cokebottles.com, put together with a bit of screws and duct tape? And make 10,000 identical pieces. What could be so difficult? 🙄

Reminds me of the first gen Fuji X-100 and XPro1 -- euphemistically called "quirky" but in reality felt like beta firmware driving the cameras. And this from a multibillion dollar company with comparatively vast resources at its disposal and previous experience. I imagine the multiple challenges are exponentially greater for Konost.

There is healthy skepticism and some light-hearted fun in this thread, all of which keeps things grounded. And yes, I'd like Konost to amaze us all. Now, where did I park my unicorn?

 

[giganova]

To be fair, there are (few) examples of how entrepreneurs successfully entered the camera business.

Examples are Red One Digital Cinema Cameras or Phase One (who bought a share of Mamiya Digital Imaging). However, the efforts of Red One and Phase One were clearly better financed - they had a long-term strategy by visionaries, and a more professional approach and better communication with their future customer base to back them up and excite them. Red One is the amazing success story of Jim Jannard, the guy who previously founded Oakley. The way he pulled this off is nothing short of amazing and he truly revolutionized digital cinematography.

I honesty wish Komost all the best, but I can't see how they will succeed with all the false starts, nothing but promises, and a rather amateurish (or naïve) approach.

 

[user237428934]

Reminds me of the first gen Fuji X-100 and XPro1 -- euphemistically called "quirky" but in reality felt like beta firmware driving the cameras. And this from a multibillion dollar company with comparatively vast resources at its disposal and previous experience. I imagine the multiple challenges are exponentially greater for Konost.

Fuji improved these cameras in tiny steps with new software from an almost defunct product to a somewhat usable product in a period of 12-18 months when I remember right. The amazing thing is, that marketing sold people a new approach of giving people valuable features after they bought the product...and people bought this idea.

 

[jszokoli]

Leica is a luxury brand and there's no doubt these are expensive to make... I wouldn't call them gouging, but it has to be marking its cameras up significantly just based on the fact that they don't mass produce (in comparison to other consumer brands).

John,

I think that Leica is a niche brand that has luxury buyers as part of their market. I have no interest in luxury products, but I am attracted to Leica products, both new and used. You do need the resources to afford Leica but simply because they cost more does not mean that you are purchasing simply for the status of ownership. There are brands that are simply based on luxury and I accept that, but I don't think it's that simple with Leica. Their core is not rebranded cheap products, but products that cost a bunch to create, make, and support.

Joe

 

[Brooklynguy]

Fuji improved these cameras in tiny steps with new software from an almost defunct product to a somewhat usable product in a period of 12-18 months when I remember right. The amazing thing is, that marketing sold people a new approach of giving people valuable features after they bought the product...and people bought this idea.

Right you are--and the point being that the challenges are much greater for a presumably resource strapped Konost.

 

[nightfly]

I hope they succeed, I'm just not holding my breath that it will actually happen.

It's a tough environment even for established players as the market for standalone cameras has collapsed and Nikon just cancelled their mirrorless range.

Would love to see a new full frame digital for the price of a used Leica or less. I've never purchased a new Leica, film or digital, but I'm very happy to pick up their products once the new car smell has worn off. If someone else can make a tool with similar functionality and zero bells and whistles I'm very supportive, I just don't have any faith in their timeframes.

 

[Emile de Leon]

As much as I hate to say it...being a businessman myself..and digging the entrepreneurial spirit..
This Konost has about .0001% chance of succeeding...
1. Cost
2. Demand
3. Repairs
4. Actual usability
5. Longevity
I dont see this working at all..
Just a few people with a dream..that hit the skids...when reality set in and the rubber hit the road..
Time to buy an M10..
My donkey..uhhh...my Unicorn..is hungry again..time to feed it...some sushi..

 

[mpaniagua]

Leica is a luxury brand and there's no doubt these are expensive to make... I wouldn't call them gouging, but it has to be marking its cameras up significantly just based on the fact that they don't mass produce (in comparison to other consumer brands).

I think that's the key issue here. We are talking about a niche market, so there are fewer customer. Design, marketing, logistics, customer support, etc. have to be paid by tens of thousands of products made and sold, instead of hundreds thousands (or millions) products made and sold by mass produced products.

In regards to Konost, is not like everything they need is to produce a camera to be a hit. I really wish them luck but they have it tough. Shrinking market, strong and stablized competitors, and don't forget people that buy Leicas do so because they like what Leica offers. Taking on a niche market isn't an small challenge. Remember VC Bessas. I don't think they were a huge success for Cosina (they are great cameras, got 2 of them) otherwise they would still be on the market.

Remember also that M10 will create an input of M9 on the used market. Really wish luck to Konost.

Regards.

 

[mpaniagua]

I hope they succeed, I'm just not holding my breath that it will actually happen.

It's a tough environment even for established players as the market for standalone cameras has collapsed and Nikon just cancelled their mirrorless range.

Would love to see a new full frame digital for the price of a used Leica or less. I've never purchased a new Leica, film or digital, but I'm very happy to pick up their products once the new car smell has worn off. If someone else can make a tool with similar functionality and zero bells and whistles I'm very supportive, I just don't have any faith in their timeframes.

I thought Leica's M were zero bells and whistles?

Regards.