X100 - Back to the Future

bwcolor said:
Most believe that the sensor used will be the tried and true 12.3mpix from Sony. Isn't this the same sensor used in the Leica X1? If folks are expecting better 'available light', high ISO files when compared to the X1, is this simply due to the micro-lens arrangement, and/or do folks believe that Fuji will use a better A/D converter?
Click to expand...

Sony has continually improved that series of sensors (it's not a single design). The microlens tech is definitely improving since the earlier generations (e.g., "gapless" tech improves shading factor). In addition, the whole pipeline prior to writing the RAW file seems to be getting refined, possibly including the charge-shift circuitry, the analog amplifier, the A-D circuitry, and the pre-RAW image processing architecture. Falk Lumo's discussion of the Pentax K-x and a couple of other cameras appears to confirm that there is significant work being done in that portion of the imaging pipeline.

I would emphasise again, though, that we don't even know whether the sensor will be a Sony sensor or a derivative thereof, or something else entirely.
 
Last edited:
semilog said:
Sony has continually improved that series of sensors (it's not a single design). The microlens tech is definitely improving since the earlier generations (e.g., "gapless" tech improves shading factor). In addition, the whole pipeline prior to writing the RAW file seems to be getting refined, possibly including the charge-shift circuitry, the analog amplifier, the A-D circuitry, and the pre-RAW image processing architecture. Falk Lumo's discussion of the Pentax K-x and a couple of other cameras appears to confirm that there is significant work being done in that portion of the imaging pipeline.

I would emphasise again, though, that we don't even know whether the sensor will be a Sony sensor or a derivative thereof, or something else entirely.
Click to expand...


It's interesting (re Falk) that Nikon is rumored to be making FX sensors in their own fab now. This is a fairly recent event. There was no talk of Nikon producing APS-C devices as yet. This rumored news is a couple of months old.

You might find these guys interesting. http://www.chipworks.com/

p.
 
Last edited:
semilog said:
If I were an engineer, that kind of forensics would be *extremely* attractive as an area to work in. Totally fascinating.
Click to expand...


I work as a photographer. My hobby is electronics. I did a lot of work in the valley and over the years met a lot of designers and engineers who became friends. Here's an old shot done at hp. I had a motorized F3 along with lighting and other gear on a side-arm, hanging over this test rig. The hp rep was so nervous he had to leave the room while I worked. I think he figured if I screwed up he would loose his job.. I don't remember what he told me this test station cost..
 
Last edited:
semilog said:
Good points, especially considering that it needs to cover only an APS-C frame. Flash sync at 1/4000 (without Nikonian jiggery-pokery) – that there's a dream setup. Probably just a dream, of course...
Click to expand...

Rotary shutters can't have a very high max speed, unless I'm mistaken. My Robots can only do 1/500. The size of the shutter opening also has be pretty small to keep the rotating disc's inertia low (and thus max speed high) which rules out using the design for longer tele lenses. For this reason I would think that its unlikely that Fuji would be investing a lot into using a rotary sensor as the design could not be used for an interchangeable version of the kit (or at least not with one that could support both high top speed AND use with longer tele lenses).
 
semilog said:
My guess is that it will be a variant of the same Copal found in the Hexar and the G1/G2. Just a guess.
Click to expand...

I do hope that this isn't true: The Hexar RF's shutter has a lag of 100ms by design. Considering you also have to factor in a certain delay for focussing as well as a closing/opening cycle to switch from live view to capture mode, this would be a fairly long effective shutter lag!

Hexar owners can verify this by setting a slow shutter speed, e.g. 1/4s and look through the camera from behind when pressing the shutter release: The shutter sound features a double click, followed by a whine for film winding. The time delay between the first and second click is constant and amounts to ~ 100ms, independent of the selected shutter speed. The first shutter curtain only opens with the second click.
 
Last edited:
Frankie said:
I have not read anywhere such a statement from Fuji.
Click to expand...

Yesterday, I watched a very noisy Photokina interview where a British Photo-Journalist interviewed the X100 designer. He stated that design began one year ago. So, the sensor used was already in the pipeline somewhere. I don't think one year is enough time to design a new sensor. Perhaps, I should say 1 1/2 years.
 
Tonight courier woke me up. I opened door and he handed me package and asked to sign a paper. I thought it's test printer I've recently bought, but no, it appeared....X100. It's very different camera from any other I've handled. I raised it to the eye, but realized I need to insert battery. I looked into box and what I saw were alarm clock, ringing at 6:30AM.

Back to the future!
 
bwcolor said:
Yesterday, I watched a very noisy Photokina interview where a British Photo-Journalist interviewed the X100 designer. He stated that design began one year ago. So, the sensor used was already in the pipeline somewhere. I don't think one year is enough time to design a new sensor. Perhaps, I should say 1 1/2 years.
Click to expand...
I don't think that necessarily follows. They could well have spent a year on concept work, or looking at all the other aspects before deciding on or finalising a sensor design.

We're all guessing at the moment... we need to be careful we don't generate what , of all people, Paul McCartney, termed "anticipointment.' Where you wait so long, and gee yourself up so much, the hallowed object cannot possibly live up to expectations.
 
I wrote before that:

A lesson learned would have been the Photokina '08 introduction of the M8...where offset micro lens was used to neutralize pixel vignetting problem.

Another important milestone would have been the successful launch of the Peny G1 with a good EVF.

The critical news soon followed was the mass production start of the Epson EVF panel in October '09 and successfully used in the Oly E-P1, 2.

I also believe Epson would have made the EVF panel development and imminent release known to potential OEM customers. I dare say much of the Japanese camera manufacturer community would have known about it...NDA or not, one way or another.

It is right after the Epson news that we start hearing EVIL talks from Canikon...where Nikon president openly say, a couple of months ago, that there is alternative to RF or SLR...which sparked speculation of a Nikon EVIL announcement in Photokina...

No matter what naysayer might now argue, we all know a 50+ year old Leica RF had its days.
 
Last edited:
Paul T. said:
I don't think that necessarily follows. They could well have spent a year on concept work, or looking at all the other aspects before deciding on or finalising a sensor design.

We're all guessing at the moment... we need to be careful we don't generate what , of all people, Paul McCartney, termed "anticipointment.' Where you wait so long, and gee yourself up so much, the hallowed object cannot possibly live up to expectations.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is what I'm saying. Wherever the sensor is coming from, it was already in development when this project started. Of course, all the technologies were in the mix. It is just a matter of getting everything working in one camera.. We will see.

I know nothing of this industry, but it seemed to me that from inception to product in 18 months is a pretty fast pace.
 
Last edited:
Frankie said:
Fuji has already announced, via a poster at Photokina, a flash as one of the four known accessories [the others are a two piece brown leather case, a vented straight lens hood and an adapter ring for focal length converters].


Maybe the Fuji flash will operate in a way suitable for the intents of the camera...besides, there is a dinky flash built into the body.
Click to expand...

Can you tell me if the flash looks anything like a Nikon made unit? In addition to the SB 900,800,600 and the new one?, Nikon makes 2 smaller units. One that is often pictured with the P6000 + P7000 cameras, that also have built in units... would be about the right size for an X100. And, if it is a Nikon unit.. it would point to some of the electronics design features in the X100.

more:

http://www.nikonusa.com/Learn-And-Explore/Nikon-Camera-Technology/Camera-Flashes.page

I should add that my Fuji S5 makes use of Nikon's CLS lighting. This is a "big deal" for anyone using Nikon wireless lighting via the SB series speedlights. If this camera is CLS ready, there is a huge market for the camera with Nikon owners who have or want to make use of CLS.

I did some reading and it looks like the R200 unit will not work in Command mode. This doesn't mean any of the above is invalid. It's usually Fuji's design policy to make use of products made by their friends in Japan and Germany. There is a small speedlight, SB 400 that is mated to the P7000. The P6000, and p7000 will make use of "wired" iTTL via the SB series.
 
Last edited:
PKR said:
Can you tell me if the flash looks anything like a Nikon made unit? In addition to the SB 900,800,600 and the new one?, Nikon makes 2 smaller units. One that is often pictured with the P6000 + P7000 cameras, that also have built in units... would be about the right size for an X100. And, if it is a Nikon unit.. it would point to some of the electronics design features in the X100.
Click to expand...

I don't think Fuji will be using the Nikon CLS system: The contact arrangement in the X100's hot shoe is different from Nikon's contact arrangement. In fact, the Fuji contact arrangement appears to be a mirrored Nikon arrangement.
 
Arjay said:
I don't think Fuji will be using the Nikon CLS system: The contact arrangement in the X100's hot shoe is different from Nikon's contact arrangement. In fact, the Fuji contact arrangement appears to be a mirrored Nikon arrangement.
Click to expand...

The shoe would tell the story. thanks, pkr.

I think when Nikon moved out of the Fujifilm building a few months ago there may have been a separation of their earlier design policy.. too bad.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom